Essential Mental Healing
Essential Mental Healing
From OCD To Everyday Courage "Radical Bravery": Tools, Truth, And Tiny Wins with Renee Zukin
Therapy Thursday
What if bravery looked less like a roar and more like a 10-minute habit you actually keep? We sit down with author and educator Renee Zukin to explore radical bravery as a daily practice, not a performance. From quarterly life planning to the tiny wins that keep momentum alive, we unpack how consistency, compassion, and honest conversations reshape mental health in the real world.
Renee shares her path through OCD, intrusive thoughts, and panic—how a diagnosis brought clarity, how exposure and cognitive tools changed her thinking, and why regression during COVID wasn’t a failure but an invitation to use hard-won skills again. Her story reframes courage on a sliding scale: some days it’s getting out of bed or eating the meal in front of you; other days it’s flying after years on the ground. We also talk about the hidden cost of faking confidence at work, and why simple resets—standing in a meeting, a 30-second breath, a quick walk—can protect your nervous system and prevent burnout.
The heart of the episode is truth-telling with care. We model tough mother-daughter conversations that stay tender, not damaging, and show how writing or reflection can create clarity before you speak. Add in practical tools like the Finch app for micro-habits, and a quarter-by-quarter approach that turns big visions into small steps, and you’ve got a roadmap for growth that honors real life. Everyone is brave about something. Name yours, take the next tiny step, and keep going.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find these conversations.
Renee Zukin is an author, educator, coach, and
mental health advocate doing the inner work to see
outer change. She has more than 20 years of
experience in education, writing, and
entrepreneurship, and has studied multiple
psychological and healing modalities that have
sustained her and helped support her students and
clients alike. Renee is passionate about cultivating a
safe space for others to use the written word and
organizational structures as tools for
self-transformation and empowerment.
Book Link Everyday I'm Brave
Host Candace Patrice
Co-host Janet Hale
visit the website at https://www.essentialmotivation.com/
visit the store at https://shopessentialmotivation.com/
Instagram instagram.com/essentialmotivationllc
visit Janet's website https://haleempowermentllc.com/
To be a guest on our show email me at candacefleming@essentialmotivation.com
In the subject line put EMH Guest
Suicide Prevention Lifeline 988
Music by Lukrembo: https://soundcloud.com/lukrembo
Provided by Knowledge Base: https://bit.ly/2BdvqzN
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Essential Mental Healing. Where I'm your host, Candace Patrice, and joining me today is my mother. Mom! You look different than you did this morning, and I like this sweater.
Janet Hale:Are you serious?
Candace Patrice:Yep. You mean when I was just rolling out of the bed? Yep. And still in my night yep. Well, let me say this. The sweater stands out.
Janet Hale:Well, thank you very much.
Candace Patrice:You see? Ooh!
Janet Hale:You got well.
Candace Patrice:How are you today?
Janet Hale:I, you know, mm-hmm. I'm good. I'm good. As you know, there's a transition going on in my life that involves my daughter, Candace, and me making adjustments and having meltdowns.
unknown:In the process.
Janet Hale:How am I doing? I'm okay. All right. It's life is just rolling along.
Candace Patrice:It's um, this is our first episode post-new year. So, how is 2026 going so far?
Speaker:Hmm.
Janet Hale:Good. I feel more grounded. We were talking about my station in life as far as work is concerned, and being in a place where I found my people, my village, all the crazy I accept. I bring all my crazy, and we're just doing things. Um my new year with you is interesting. It's a time of growth. And um, my little girl, she doesn't want to grow up all the time.
unknown:I understand.
Janet Hale:And so she will have a tantrum, or two or three, or four or five. And so, how is it starting off? The year is starting off really good.
Candace Patrice:Good.
Janet Hale:In all the ways it is good.
Candace Patrice:I love that. I I've been um my new year starting is starting off really, really good, phenomenal. Um, every day I've allowed to have its own adventure. So one of the things that I did was instead of making a New Year's resolution, kind of made a new life resolution. I didn't realize that until in this moment, but looking at a renewal every three months, it just so happens that once we get to every fourth, third month, it just happens to be when the rest of the world is celebrating a new year. But if I consistently look at life as that progression, like, okay, so like right now I want to I want to work on some consistencies. So like I'll go to the gym for 10 minutes a day. And last night I did not make it, but guess what I did? Guess what I did? I sat in my bed and I did 10 minutes of moving my body. So like bicycles and because I did I want it to be consistent. It was about the consistency, not necessarily making it to the gym. That's the goal, but the consistency of that 10 minutes on my body is, you know, it's not even for weight loss nor anything, it's literally just to build the consistency. So um, every day is just taking it and it and enjoying whatever is to come in that day. I might have a little, I may have a plan, but if it moves around a little bit, it's all right. Everything is okay, and I and I love that. So, with that being said, we have a new guest. Uh, starting off our new year is Renee. Hey, Renee. Hi, how are you?
Renee Zukin:I'm doing great. This is a great way to spend my morning with the two of you. And I just love, I gotta come in and say the thing about every three months. I started that last year too, like thinking about my life in quarters. Yeah, like we do this for business. Why don't we do this for our life? Like, let's take a minute. How do these last three months go? What do I want in the next three months? So, congratulations. I'm loving that. And it's reminding me uh of what you know, where I want to go to this year. So bring it on in 2026.
Candace Patrice:Okay, come on, be ready for us because we're not we're not trying to be ready for you. You get ready for us. We're coming back strong. So, Renee, tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? What you do? Like the audience who doesn't know you want to know you. So let's know who you are.
Renee Zukin:Yeah, well, I'm just thrilled to be here. My name is Renee Zukin. I am an author and an educator. And most recently, I just published my first uh full-length self-help memoir uh back in August. It was released. Yes. Speaking of every day, it's called Every Day I'm Brave. And it really is um, I love how connected your, you know, this message was already this morning of like taking it one day at a time and and really being here for for the gifts. Um, I'm also a writing coach. I help people get consistent with their writing practice. So good for you on that consistency in the gym. That's uh I'm gonna head back that way too, myself. And you know, just uh really I'm really passionate about you know, each of us individually doing our work so that we can, you know, have that ripple effect of change in the world. Like, you know, let's show up for ourselves more compassionately, let's show up for each other more compassionately, and what a difference that's gonna make.
Candace Patrice:Very good. Well, it is, I'm really looking forward to the conversation that we're going to have, whatever that conversation is that we will have. Um, with your, as we were just talking about the grounding, taking it one day at a time. For you, how did that come about for you to even get in tuned enough to try it to go every three months?
Renee Zukin:Yeah, the the every three months most recently, it really did start out with the business, right? So I've been running my own business um as an entrepreneur, you know, as a side gig when I was still teaching in the classroom and then um more um more readily these last few years. And, you know, as I was making, you know, quarterly goals and things like that, I was like, huh, you know, and what you said about there's different cultures and things that have new years. So I grew up um Jewish and we have our new year, right? In generally in the fall, and then I, you know, the January one, and then we've got, you know, the Chinese New Year that comes in. And so um, and I always love learning about different cultures and different ways of doing things and constantly kind of working toward what's going to work best for me. And um it's it's often hard to work toward the big vision because you can get so lost in the weeds. So doing this, like, you know, this the three-month planning or the three-month goal, it also kept me really focused, which is something that is not does not come naturally to me as you know, a creative person. I'm always, you know, wanting to do have my hands in all sorts of things. Um, and especially when it came to writing the book, I was like, okay, I gotta hone in, I gotta, you know, call my writing coach, I gotta get get clear on what are the small steps I need to take to do this thing that's big. Because it's, you know, and we all have those things, whether it's building a business, writing a book, you know, doing a program, uh, doing a podcast, like you got the big vision. We're these big visionaries, and so how do we break it down in these smaller steps to just make it attainable?
Candace Patrice:What would you consider your to date? What have you mastered? Like uh um your skill set, what would you consider yourself mastered at? So I know we you you talk about mental health, we talk about um not perfectionism, but um what was the word? Resilience, resilience over perfectionism. So absolutely what would you consider your mastery?
Renee Zukin:You know, my mastery, I feel like um I don't know that any of us humans could have full mastery over our mental health. I just yes, that is just not possible. We've got different layers in there, right? That we're constantly coming up against that evolution, exactly. And at each stage, like right, as we grow in our leadership, as we grow in our relationships, as we grow in our you know, in all these different areas of life, and we come to this like next plateau, there's more stuff there to work on all the time. And so, you know, if there's if there's mastery to be had there, um, you know, I think part of what I remind myself of is how can I master this self-acceptance, this self-compassion in the midst of these challenges.
Janet Hale:Yes, yes, and yes.
Candace Patrice:I was um speaking on so well, okay, I got two things. One, I want a statement, mastering. So I feel like I'm well having something to achieve and attain is easy, it's easier for me to work at. But I realize that my attainable goal doesn't end until death. What is that? So for me, for me, it's modeling the behaviors of Jesus Christ. So when we're talking about forgiveness and we're talking about love, and um, I was listening to a devotional this morning that talked about uh forgiveness, and it was saying that we're supposed to have forgiveness in our hearts so much that we have forgiven before the offense even occurred, therefore, it doesn't even penetrate us when the offense happens. So it's one of those things that I want to work on personally. Um, and I see the days where I'm able to do it really well, and so it's a it's a model to attain. Giving full unconditional love to every situation. Um and you know, I was reading or you know, looking at your bullet points and things, and honest conversations is one of them, or one of the things. And um, you wanted to say something about that, Ma?
Janet Hale:Uh when I read that, I thought the same thing. And uh yeah, and I thought about you and I too in conversations, and how um I don't want this to be all about Candace and I therapy session, but anyway, about how you and I have we have had some really rough, hard uh conversations. And when we're in a situation, which was recently, we're having this conversation that gets so difficult and so intense, and it's like we both decide to stay in it. We're gonna stay here, we're gonna deal with it. We're gonna well, I'm gonna cry about it because I'm I'm gonna cry too. And I'm gonna have my feelings because she she has to think about it.
Candace Patrice:No, I don't have them anyway.
Janet Hale:So here's the thing, here's the thing, because she's you're in your feelings. Yep, I'm in my feelings. So, but the thing is to be able, regardless, we're to be able to have the honest conversation, even when it's hard. But like, look, we're gonna stick it out. And I remember talking to her one day on the phone because we hadn't talked in a couple days. I don't know, I might have been mad at her for something. And then when I called, I wanted to share something with I was like, Karen, I want to share this with you. I said, you know, we're gonna do life together, right? Because it's like regardless, little girl, it is what it is, but to have that, the honest conversation, the honest, you know, being honest about my feelings um when I'm feeling them, and that's okay. And she knows it because I'll she'll say something, no, but I'm feeling whatever I'm feeling, and it's okay, right? And so we come from two different places. It's the weirdest thing. I wish you could have a camera, and then you could do a thesis on it. A whole thesis, a whole thesis, a whole thing, a whole thesis. Yes, a whole thesis. Get two doctorates, and so with the stuff, but anyway, to be able to just do that and have the conversation and get to the hard parts and breathe through it, or not breathe, and just keep going. And then at the end of it, it's like, well, Candy still feels the way she feels, and I still feel the way I feel, but we had a chance to talk about it, but it's out there, yeah. But it's out there and understood, right? Heard, yeah, heard and very well understood, right?
Candace Patrice:I would ask you, Renee. Um, since we're on the topic of honest conversations, um, how would you tell help someone navigate feelings and truth?
Speaker:Whew.
Renee Zukin:Great question. Well, and what I just I want to honor too, right? The courage that it takes to be real about how you're feeling, especially with the people that you really love and care about. Because you care what they think, right? We could say, oh, I you're gonna think whatever you're gonna think, but you know, the people we really love and care about, right? It matters to us. Um, and that's okay. And to to acknowledge that. And, you know, I certainly, if I'm guiding other people, you know, when when things are hot and you don't, you know, make sure you're taking a minute to, you know, feel your feelings, have, you know, and this is why I love writing. I mean, for me, writing is the way in which I understand myself better, and then I can come to the hard conversation with clarity. So, you know, maybe that's you know, different for everybody, but um, you know, a way that you can show up to, you know, where is the when is the appropriate time to just kind of you know have all the feelings and speak your truth in a way that you can have that positive interaction. And by positive, I don't mean that it's not difficult, right? But it's not hurtful, yeah. Right? There's a difference between having an honest conversation and a hurtful conversation, right? And that's you know, in the in the few minutes that I've spent with y'all and kind of get some glimpses, what I see is this real like love and care about each other. And if that's the bedrock of your conversation, like and you're in it, then you know that's a beautiful thing. And you can you can be able to express what you need, right? And also not expect that the other person is responsible for it, right? There's a there's also a give and take. I always say, you know, in relationships we only get 50% of the blame because we can't make other people do what we want and or think what we want, or and half the time we're not responsible, even though we feel responsible for their feelings, right? And their actions. Um, you know, everybody's gotta take some a piece of the responsibility.
Janet Hale:And I I wanted to say something because I read some of what you said. It's not for me, I'm gonna speak for Janet. Um, it's not about being perfect in this thing, it's about being willing to get messy and make mistakes and be incorrect, and it's okay. Right. That's the part. See, because I think sometimes we get so analytical. Oh my god, and then you did this and then that. And wait a minute, what's that means? No, right now it means what I just said, and guess what? It is what it is. I think that we as people in relationships should offer that to one another. We're not going to do this perfectly, right? Right. I'm a I'ma mess up and say the word damn.
unknown:Right.
Janet Hale:Shit is mine. I love the word shit.
Speaker:At some point.
Janet Hale:Right. And so at some point, it is okay. And I think what happens sometimes when we get into what we're into and the field of work that we do or the writing that we do, and all those things, right? We can sometimes get into a situation. I'm gonna give you an example. When um my son was young and I was in, you know, working in human services. I still am in some way, and I remember he used to say something to me. Mama, stop social working me. Do you understand that how powerful that really is? Don't come, you know, and I was, I was social working because I have all this knowledge.
Renee Zukin:You do, right?
Janet Hale:That's what I do knowledge, and I need to da-da-da. No, what he needed was his mother, right?
Renee Zukin:Yeah.
Janet Hale:Imperfected woman to come in the door and say a damn curse word, get your ass off the chair. You're right. That's what he needed. Yes, and then you know, and he got that, but I'm just sometimes when I want to be perfect, right, right, you know. So I think it's okay to be sloppy, to be messy, to make mistakes. Because what's going to do?
Candace Patrice:Miss Frizzle. Take chances, get messy, make mistakes. The magic school bus. Oh, that's our magic school bus, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Renee Zukin:So you that's just it. We're so afraid that our messiness is gonna, you know, ruin something, so we don't say what we need to say or do, you know, and then it it just gets festers and bottles up, and and you know, we end up breaking things when we just meant to, you know, we just meant to breaking things. Yeah.
Candace Patrice:I I want to shift gears a bit to um radical bravery. Um, and I guess I want to break down the term radical because that's that is a a very big thing. We uh did a conference in November, and radical acceptance is what we you know, it's in the booklet, and one of the things that I wanted, you know, everybody to kind of take in. But radical bravery. So I have a definition for radical, the definition being uh relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something. Um, and then the second definition is advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change. I don't like either of those definitions. Thank you. I'm glad you think that I want to find a better one.
Renee Zukin:Yeah, I know. Well, like I feel like we could take pieces out of both those, right? This um, you know, the the second one for sure, right? This this change, this different or new way of seeing something, right? That we um In order to make change. And then that first one, I don't know, maybe read again. There was something in there that resonated, but not the whole yeah.
Candace Patrice:It was um relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something. I I found one that was better. I liked um Okay.
Janet Hale:Let's hear it.
Candace Patrice:A person who holds a holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles. Extremes.
Renee Zukin:Yeah. Well, so there is something to that, especially, you know, we talk about radical acceptance because it's an extreme like conviction, right? We're told not to accept our whole selves. We're conditioned to like, you know, pick ourselves apart, pick each other apart, yada, yada, yada. And and so it's a bold move to be in a space of radical acceptance. And I think, you know, when I talk about radical bravery, it's it's really this idea that, you know, you you've heard the phrase, of course, you know, bravery isn't the absence of fear, or courage isn't the absence of fear. It's, you know, feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And for me, it's the the everyday practice of radical bravery is understanding that that bravery is along a spectrum. And what's brave for you one day, you know, is different than another. We've got different capacity each day, each moment. Um, and what's brave for one person is not for another, right? There's everybody's got different fears. And so if we're constantly comparing ourselves to other people, right, you've maybe heard the phrase comparison is the thief of joy, but it's also is the thief of this ability to accept and appreciate what we have done. I had to start like looking, you know, in some of the darkest times of my life, I had to start looking at where was I showing up courageously, even if it was just getting out of bed, right? That was an act of bravery. And so the radical piece to that is understanding and appreciating and acknowledging the ways in which we are all showing up bravely each day in different ways and in ways that we need to. And then it, you know, adopting that it allows you to come to each new situation with that same kind of question. Well, how can I show up bravely in this situation? Um, you know, I'm afraid to have this conversation, I'm afraid to apply for this job, I'm afraid to, you know, go to the grocery store, whatever it is, right? That there is a way that we can relate to it differently so that we can appreciate what we can do, acknowledge it, celebrate it, and also have the compassion for the days in which we can't show up the way we want to and do better the next time.
Candace Patrice:I would say my um or do different.
Renee Zukin:I don't like the word better.
Candace Patrice:I me either, right? Do different. I want a different I like that, do different. Um so I was gonna say with bravery, I would I would say I have a radical bravery of asking questions. And I like it, my dad told me that the only thing someone can tell you is no. I like no so when I ask, and people sometimes it's like, you can't ask that question. I'm like, well, we don't know the answer. Why can't I ask it? In order to get the answer, we have to ask it. Um, and if they don't want to tell the answer, that's fine too. They can say no. Right, exactly. Um and so, okay, so what has your journey been like to get to these thought processes? Oh, it's me. Let's talk about it. I think we get into the book now a little bit too, aren't we?
Renee Zukin:Right, yeah. Um, you know, certainly the book uh picks out some of the best uh and hardest moments that uh got me to this place of where I'm able to, you know, have this perception and see where where things are. But, you know, for me, um actually like a couple pieces. One was um in my 30s, I was uh officially diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. Um, and I didn't know much about it. And, you know, you see people talk about it all the time. Oh, I'm so OCD. I like, you know, I like my things in order, and that really isn't what it is, right? Like we can have this desire to have things orderly uh and maybe feel a little anxious if you know our things aren't color-coded or whatever, but but actual obsessive-compulsive disorder is so much more internal, and it's and it's about the intrusive thoughts and the things that might happen, right? This like uncertainty and this question about um you know, bad things that can happen. And so you're doing whatever you can to kind of you know make some outward order of something that feels so out of control inside. And for me, when I finally got the diagnosis, at the time, the um the intrusive thought I had been having um that kept kind of repeating was um was worrying about what was in my food and that whatever was in my food was gonna make me sick. And so this became, you know, what had been a very internal experience for me, which of course is easy to hide and mask, right? Suddenly became very external. I mean, my family's noticing I'm not eating my food, right? I'm dropping pounds, I'm the doctor is wondering what's happening on the, you know. And um so when that became external and I couldn't really hide it anymore, uh, and I was able to get this accurate diagnosis, for me it was a freedom. It was like, oh, I finally understand what kind of brain I'm working with. I now know, like, yes, talk therapy is great, and I still, you know, encourage anybody to do it, but that wasn't gonna help with my thinking, right? So I had to, I had to go into different kinds of you know, cognitive behavior therapy and um different exposure work in order to really reframe and retrain my brain. And there's so much more like research out there and practices and all sorts of neuroscience, and I'm so thrilled because you know, we're constantly learning about how our brains work, how we work as humans, as habits, and all that. So, right, this evolution that we keep reaching is is super cool. But but that was really the beginning of a new way of for me to be thinking about um how I could work differently in order to create a better life than the one that I was struggling with so much. And so, you know, while I I don't let the diagnosis define me, it was so helpful in allowing me to see like different ways in which I could feel better and be better.
Candace Patrice:How long were you um living this life, the OC, the OCD, before anyone noticed?
Renee Zukin:Um, you know, probably even in my my like uh high school years, um, I certainly like I dealt with some depression and anxiety, but you know, back in the 90s, uh people didn't talk about it. They didn't know. We were just angsty teenagers. Like that was it. So I um, you know, and I had, you know, I had very supportive parents and I saw a therapist a few times, but again, I was an angsty teenager, and I'm not gonna tell them whatever, you know. Like, um, but looking back, like once I got the diagnosis and I looked back at the things that I had really struggled with as a teenager and in my early 20s, I was like, oh, that's what that is. And even still today, like as I'm, you know, up-leveling and do, you know, living this very different life than I had the decade before. Um, like I just have this awareness now of like, oh, this is the way I've been, you know, my brain likes to work naturally. How can I make this experience different? Um, what do I need to know or learn or um how do to change how this experience feels for me? So it was, you know, it's interesting.
Candace Patrice:Um I'm doing a training for youth mental health, and it was actually in the last night's training about adolescents um not being diagnosed for 10 years with the OCD. It takes about 10 years before anybody really notices. And you know, they kind of talked about how that means they've been 10 or 11 years in pain and in this thought process.
Renee Zukin:Um for well, because you think your thoughts are you, yeah, and they're not. You just think, oh, this is me, or oh, that was really scary. I better keep this to myself so people don't think I'm crazy.
Candace Patrice:Yeah. Um do you remember what triggered your thought processes to that? You don't have to tell us, but is that something that you have to recall?
Renee Zukin:Um, like specific to the to the eating. Yeah. To the food. So the food thing. Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a conglomeration of things. Um, at the time, you know, the the internet was booming. I mean, this was early, early 2000s or mid-2000s. Um, it was like 2006, 2007. Um, and you know, suddenly there was like all these reports of like E. coli and salmonella getting in the in the spinach or in the peanut butter, right? And so now there's all this information coming about like, oh, and or like mad cow disease. Remember that? Yeah. I was like, I stopped. That's when I stopped eating red meat. I haven't eaten it since. Wow. That actually makes so much sense. Right? So, like, that was happening. Um, I was also, I had just had my third baby. I was, you know, postpartum depression is a real thing, and postpartum postpartum stressors, right? Like, just in general, I mean, having three kids and you know, working a job. I was teaching middle school at the time too. And like, you know, so everybody was bringing home every illness, you know, from the daycare, from school, from like we were just like everybody was sick all the time. And um, and I had so there was that going on. There was, you know, stressors in my in my marriage at the time, and we ended up divorcing. And so there was like all this sort of external, like, okay, so how do I, how do I keep myself safe? And like that was the way. How do I like the question kept being I can if I can't trust what's happening outside of me, what can I do? And obviously, you know, I took it to this extreme. I was barely eating, right? And um, which is not healthy. Um, but that was really the like so the conglomeration of those few things was the catalyst of this particular um uh they call it a uh a latching, like you latching on to this idea of like, you know, my food is not safe or I can't trust what I'm about to eat. Um, and that can change over time. People with OCD, they'll find new and different things to to loop and latch on to. But uh like a it like addiction. Yeah, exactly.
Candace Patrice:Yeah, it's a the transference of dopamine, I guess. Yeah. Um, so would you say that that brought you to your radical bravery over this overcoming? That um or and is it an overcoming? Is it still a work in progress kind of thing?
Renee Zukin:It is definitely still a work in progress. Okay. Definitely. Um, and and within that, like, you know, when I have I have had multiple diagnoses of different things over my life. So, you know, generalized anxiety, panic disorder. When COVID hit, that was a whole new level of right, right? Um what was interesting about that is I was, you know, at the time, everybody, of course, was afraid of germs. Um, because you know, that's what we were calling.
Candace Patrice:Don't touch anything, don't look literally don't breathe on anything.
Renee Zukin:But it was so, yeah, it was so interesting to observe other people like doing a lot of the same kind of rituals that I had been doing for years. Oh and like, you know, obviously, and then you know, the re-entry and and things like that, um, you know, people who weren't um where that wasn't an ongoing issue were able to kind of re-enter the world in a in a faster way. But it was really interesting to see, and I think it actually allowed my family to understand me a little more. You know, they would they would talk about an experience, and we were, oh, I couldn't imagine, you know, I had to use my hand sanitizer on this thing, and somebody over here was coughing, and I was suddenly aware of all these things. I was like, Wow, that's my life every day.
Candace Patrice:Wow, yeah, that's so that was interesting. That's beautiful. That is um so question did the COVID experience cause a regression for you?
Renee Zukin:Absolutely, absolutely, and and in a lot of ways. Um, I mean, the the sort of fear of germs and illness and sickness um was hugely pervasive, um, and so much so that it um it triggered panic attacks every time I was out. So I was barely leaving my house for, you know, at first nobody was leaving their house, and then everybody else was. Yeah, definitely some benefits. Um but yeah, I had to um I had to kind of start fresh, um, especially when it came to um to eating and to the you know, sort of the germs, but also this the um the work I did with panic actually uh helped me in every area and really allowed me to sort of, I mean, talk about overcome. Like I hadn't flown in 20 years, and after kind of working through all that, I've been able to fly, I've been able to travel and do all sorts of things that I hadn't been able to do sometimes ever, um, but certainly not in the last 20 years. Um but so doing that, you know, we talk about sort of the plateau, and it was like, yeah, post-COVID, it was like, okay, I had I had reached this point and then, you know, kind of fell off the ledge, but I didn't, you know, one of the things that I want to acknowledge, because we go through cycles in life all the time, is that I wasn't entering the work without already having had tools in my back pocket. And so my ability to kind of come out of it, even though it was a huge regression, was was a whole different experience than the first time I was learning the tools. Um like riding a mic, what they call it muscle memory. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I was coming at it from this um from this perspective of, okay, I've done it before, I can do it again, instead of I did it before and I, you know, and you know, having it be a negative thing, like, oh my god, I I lost all that work. It it wasn't lost. Um, and it actually allowed me to heal even more than I would have before.
Candace Patrice:Do you think it was helpful that the world had to re-enter the same way that you did? So it's like a little bits at a time, a little bit set a time. And then you know that the world has to clean a little better than they did before. So I know there's sanitizer at every station I go to today.
Renee Zukin:So yeah, that was, you know, that was definitely helpful. Um, but you know, I was one of those that re-entry really took about two years, like to be for I was one of the last people still wearing a mask in the, you know, going to the school function and still wearing the mask. And um, and I just had to be okay with it. Yeah, because I was like, I don't want to stay home, I don't want to miss my kids' show. I'm gonna sit in the auditorium and watch them do their thing and you took your tools.
Candace Patrice:You took your tools, right? Exactly tools that were for your life, like exactly because nobody else knows what's happening in your bubble, so it's like, hey, you guys have your own bubble. I don't even care what you think because guess what? It doesn't affect me, and I'm happy. That's pretty cool. That's actually that's really cool. I think um COVID, and since we're one, we're talking about OCD specifically with like germs and things, um, allow people to be more inclusive into the process that you had to go through go through. So anyone who has dealt with what you dealt with could now tell a story, and others would be able to say, I understand. I there was a point in time we all lived this life.
Renee Zukin:So we were all wiping down.
Candace Patrice:You know, you know, unfortunately, it doesn't not unfortunately, well, it didn't stick with all of us in the same way that it would someone else, but right, it was still a matter of inclusion of okay, I can I can empathize, I know what that is, I I know what's happening, because at one point, even if it was for a little bit, it happened.
Renee Zukin:Right. Well, and not only just with OCD, but the general anxiety about oh gosh, what is this thing? Right. And then how do I live my life? And so many things changed post COVID and are still changing. And there's so much uncertainty and there's so much anxiety that is pervasive um for so many people, you know, our youth, especially, you know, as a former middle school teacher, I was teaching still during COVID. I was teaching my kids online, and um, and you know. My own kids were teenagers and finishing up high school, you know, in those few years. And, you know, we're noticing at every age, kids and adults, like because there's so much uncertainty in the world that kind of was kick-started during that time, um, that anxiety has really become pervasive. And so we do understand each other more, I think, as a result. You know, not that I would wish anybody to be experiencing that, but I think it allows us, I mean, the fact that we're here having this conversation is because of that. I mean, this is a gift that we need to be able to keep having these conversations. We need to be able to be talking about it and to acknowledge that everybody's got something they're struggling with. And how can we, how can we help each other, you know, collectively? And um, I love that you're having these conversations and you're doing this podcast, and y'all are doing it together in this way to really reach um folks who maybe you know don't have people in their lives who are willing to have these conversations.
Candace Patrice:Absolutely, and and just knowing that someone else made it through, and you can make it through in your own way. So maybe it's your story that helps somebody else. Maybe it's a past guest that helps somebody, and they're sitting maybe a past guest helps someone with a situation similar to yours, but it was their story, their journey that connected with them. And even like hearing your story, one, super proud of you. Uh, just taking the tools and being able to acknowledge your journey, like from the beginning to and I know like that's just one part of the journey we talked about. Um but we you know, we spent some time on it, which I think is important. Uh, but anybody who is dealing with something they need to overcome, that one take the steps, do you know, find something, find a why to get through it. Like if the other ends, I I want to get, I want to get through this, I need to do this. You asked a couple of questions before, like, what do I need to in the beginning of the podcast? What do I need to do this? What do I need to do though? Ask yourself the questions so that you can find the answers to help you through it. Because without the questions, we have nothing to go towards, right? It's just space of thoughts, but it's okay, let me direct them somewhere. And I think that if you can take the time to try to heal, you'll have the tools if it presents itself again. Um, yeah, or you'll have the tools to take it to another situation, but you gotta be willing to pick them up. Just be willing to pick up a tool. It doesn't matter, and that's the thing, it doesn't matter what your tool will. Let's try to stick with positive tools. You say not picking up Bible. You know, we did talk about transference, you know. But you know what? It can be transferred to something, like you said, more positive. Like for me, my transference went to the Bible, and I love that, you know, and I feel like it makes me better. So yeah, I I love that transference, actually. Such a good one, okay? I won't stop actually. I'm getting more addicted to it.
Janet Hale:I love it. But I have uh just kind of switch gears just a little bit, and one of the uh bullets is and we're talking about things that have happened, things are happening, people are trying to get through whatever it is that's happening in the world like we did when COVID. Right? I thought when COVID was out there that we all needed a therapist, yeah, like everybody should assign the therapist because everyone had to be stressed out. The rich and the famous, every it was just everywhere. And so we're dealing with other things, yeah. And you have in here the hidden cost of faking confidence, how masking fear contributes to burnout, and how to shift the pattern. And the reason why I say that, I think sometimes we can get in this how I'm supposed to act because this is what I'm supposed to do, and then it turns into fakery. Yeah, you know, you're walking around because almost a robot. You know, I'm supposed to say this, I'm supposed to do this, I'm supposed to, whoa, no, yeah, it's okay, right? So could you talk a little bit about that?
Renee Zukin:Yeah, I love it. Well, like, and especially like at work, right? At work with, you know, acquaintances and different, and certainly there's a code of conduct that you know you should generally follow, right? I mean, we're not talking about showing up at work a disheveled mess. Um, but um, but uh I actually one of the examples I give in the book, speaking of being at work, right, is um is being like sometimes I'd be sitting in a meeting, right? And I'd feel kind of the panic come on, or I'd had a rough day, or whatever. And I like the urge would be to just sort of get up and like, you know, throw everything and run screaming out the room, right? And you know, obviously I wouldn't do that and I don't condone that kind of behavior, but what I did start doing was getting up out of my chair and just standing, right? And doing that, right? You're in this meeting, everybody's sitting listening, right? And all of a sudden I'm getting up out of my chair and I'm just standing behind it so I can stretch and move my body and just kind of move that energy a little bit, right? It feels like I'm running out the room screaming, but I'm not. And that's the way, that's like the part where I feel like we can really drop the mask, right? It's okay to be like, oh, you know what? Sitting in this chair for an hour is really difficult on my body and it's making me feel all types of things. So I'm gonna just stand up and stretch. I'm still listening, I'm still participating, right? And giving us those smaller things or allowing us to do those kinds of things where we can take care of ourselves in the moment. Um, I'll often, when I'm giving talks, especially live in person, I'll start out with like, hey, let's take a collective breath because I'm nervous up here, right? Just naming it instead of being like, oh yeah, I got it all together. I'm perfect, I'm great, I'm so confident. No, you know what? I'm scared as hell, but I'm doing it anyway, and I'm showing up and I'm having this conversation. Like, like, you know, that's that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Because if we keep it all bottled in, like if I didn't get out of my seat, right, I'd be I'd feel worse and I wouldn't be taking care of myself, and I'd get so burnt out. And um and there's no need, like we just don't need to do that anymore. We are all human, everybody's having some kind of thing.
Candace Patrice:So let's, you know. I've had to experience that. I've I've been fortunate enough to be to work in a at a location that allows so much to happen. So, like, if I need to get up, I'll go for a walk around the complex sometimes. Yeah, nice, you know, or I'll even at like I'll go do a store run or something. If they're I just have to get out the office. Um and she understands that. And we do have different buildings, and sometimes that means I'm just gonna go to a different building for a second, like even if it's just to cut the lights on, but I I've got to move a bit, um or switch up the role. Maybe it means I'll go and take the trash out. Like, I know this is something that's totally different than what I should be doing because what I should be doing, I can't do right now because I need a break. Exactly. But I can do something.
Janet Hale:Yeah, but can't love it. Candace worked in an environment that is so supportive. And I know, you know, we hear folks say I work on my job and we're a family, you know, you know you hear that. But uh it's such a supportive environment where she's at. And um, like I love teasing her about her wonderful office. Like Candace, this is like everything. It's a dream. Um, you know, but that not just the physical space, yeah, but the spiritual space, the emotional, everything when you walk in the building, it's like, oh, it's so warm and inviting. And I think that not everyone is afforded what candles. You don't understand what I mean. Being on the job where you can get up and walk to the other building and do all those things. Because that right there, that environment is just awesome. I love going up there, just sitting in the boat.
Candace Patrice:Oh, come on up there. We need a coffee date. No, I don't feel like no, come get do a coffee date with me.
Janet Hale:Oh, okay. Yeah, it is.
Candace Patrice:I'll make you some. Oh, well, tea. I'll make you some tea.
Janet Hale:Well, I don't drink coffee.
Renee Zukin:Yeah, I'll make you some tea.
Janet Hale:Yeah, yeah. I just wanted to put that plug in.
Renee Zukin:Yeah, no, that's awesome. And I'm so glad that you know you're fortunate to have that. And for others, right, they may not be in an environment where those things are easily uh uh acceptable, uh accessible, that sort of thing. And so finding small ways in which you can still build something like that for yourself. Uh, I love that you said sometimes I go take the trash out.
Speaker:Yeah, I need to.
Renee Zukin:Like that, I mean, that's something I think in any kind of work environment, there's probably some little something. Oh, I need some more staples, or I need whatever it is, right?
Candace Patrice:You know. Oh, just sweeping the sun out the door.
Renee Zukin:I do. Well, and like, um, you know, especially for folks um who work in the medical field, right? There it's like constant nonstop, nonstop, nonstop. But if you could, I mean, literally take 30 seconds, right? 30 seconds to just, okay, I'm gonna even set the timer. I'm gonna take, you know, a couple of deep breaths. I'm just gonna, you know, close my eyes or you know, sit in the storage closet for a second, whatever it is, right? Like doing that regularly will allow you to keep your own nervous system more regulated so that you can continue to show up in these ways. Um, and then hopefully, you know, be an advocate to build in things at your workplace that can really be supportive.
Candace Patrice:Yes, yes. I will say I'll throw in a quick plug for the Finch app. Um, my daughter got me on it, but it's like a mental health app. You get a little bird or something, and you have little goals you can complete. And when I say little, the goal, my first few goals is get out of bed, brush my teeth, wash my face. Yeah, and being able to just hit the little check that you're done. And then your little bird goes, it is, and then your bird goes on an adventure, and then it comes back, and you get to give it answers, and it's like, it's so I'm gonna send you an invitation. It's so cool. Like, but it would you say even if you take 30 seconds, that actual little app right there is one of those things where you can be like, let me just check my little app. Oh, yeah, I did this, I did that. What one other take three deep breaths? That's and I get to hit check. I literally will open up and be like, hold on, and I do it two more times, and that'd be three, and then I hit check. Yes, and it's just and then checking back in with it, and it's I thought about how people get a you know, the games on the phone and the scrolling and things, but that has something to do with the mind, the body, the and it's so quick, you don't have to stay on it long at all. And you can have friends, and I send my daughter a little gift or a word of encouragement. It's the coolest thing, and it's like an animated little app, too. It's colorful and it's fun. Okay, so shameless love Finch app, download it if you have it. Um I think I'm gonna put my referral code in the thing. Ooh, there you go.
Renee Zukin:Yeah, well, yeah, I will definitely check that out. That's much better than scrolling on TikTok, which I can, you know, yeah, which is doomsday.
Candace Patrice:Doom scroll. Yeah, well, Renee, it has been an absolute pleasure having you. We are I don't know, yeah, it happens. We hit the time, we have good conversation, we learn so much, and we laugh, and then we look up and it's over. I didn't have time to but thank you, thank you so much for being with us. Did you guys have any well one? If you or anybody you know has a crisis, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Line at 988 or text 988 24 hours, seven days a week. Did you guys have any last comments towards the audience?
Renee Zukin:I just, you know, it's been such an honor and a pleasure to be here with the two of you. Um, I feel like, you know, we could talk about this stuff for days uh and make some real change in the world. Um, and I just appreciate what you're doing here. And, you know, this is this is the work. We're all doing the inner work to see the outer change. And, you know, everybody's brave about something, so keep going.
Candace Patrice:How can people find you?
Renee Zukin:Uh www.dayimbrave.com or www.renezukin.com. All right. Yeah. Anything?
Janet Hale:I enjoyed this. I enjoyed you.
unknown:Thank you.
Janet Hale:Um, I appreciated your laid back approach. You you didn't take things too serious. Okay. I can't. And then, okay. And then you watch Kansas now. You're like, okay. And then we'll do a little therapy first. All right, cool. Yeah, a little therapy. Let me do this for them real quick, and then we just kind of, and and so I appreciated your laid back about it. And um, you know, it it's very comforting to have that where everything doesn't have to be perfect. Thank you. You were like, listen, life is life. Shit happens totally.
Candace Patrice:Absolutely. Um well, thank you guys for listening. Um, thank you for allowing us to be open and going on the journey with us. If you've been here since season one, you've seen the trajectory, you've seen the change, you've you've been with us through ups and downs, divorces and relationships and fights, all the things. So thank you all. You can find us at essentialmotivation.com. You can also email me at candice fleming at essentialmotivation.com. You can put Janet in the subject line if you want to get anything to her. Um, and thank you again, Renee. Thank you, mom. And remember to always love hard, forgive often, and laugh frequent. Bye, guys. Bye.
