Healing Dialogues on Family, Spirituality, and Queer Inclusivity with Ann Russo

It's Therapy Thursday!

When the path of self-discovery intersects with the embrace of one's true identity, the journey can be transformative. That's a truth our guest, Ann Russo, knows well as a psychotherapist and advocate for culturally affirming care. Together with the heartening presence of Janet Hale, we traverse the tender terrains of mental health, social justice, and personal identity. Ann sheds light on her mission to aid the queer community, people of color, and those in non-traditional relationships, reinforcing the episode's spirit of inclusivity and compassion.

Woven into our conversation are stories that resonate with the heartache and triumph of coming out, the challenges of familial acceptance, and the dynamic nature of sexual fluidity. We reflect on how societal constructs and family expectations shape our personal truths, while emphasizing the critical role parents play in nurturing spaces for children to discover their authentic selves. The thread of enthusiastic consent and the consequences of identity imposition are unravelled, illustrating the importance of self-exploration without boundaries.

Ending on a note of spiritual solace and the affirmation of selfhood, our dialogue takes a turn towards the healing aspects of spirituality and self-acceptance. Ann's journey through her own therapy practice highlights the accessibility of mental health support and her unwavering commitment to professional growth in the field. Our episode wraps with a hopeful outlook on the upcoming group that addresses the intersection of Christianity and queerness, extending an invitation to our listeners to contribute to this enriching conversation. Join us for an episode that is not just a discussion, but a tribute to the power of embracing one's entire being.


AMR Therapy Linktree
Ann Russo Linktree

Transcript

Candace Fleming: 0:06

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Essential Mental Healing. We have had some ups and downs, some hiccups and things within the show. We've had our co-host out for a few weeks and of course she's back and we are so enjoying hearing her voice and her love and what she brings to the show. So hello and thank you again, Mother Janet Hale.

Janet Hale: 0:37

You are so welcome, daughter Candace, my wonderful sweetness. Oh, thank you, and it's so good to be you and it's so good to be back and it's so good to be in your presence. It's wonderful to have two generations here together.

Candace Fleming: 0:52

Doing the work together. It's always a pleasure, always.

Candace Fleming: 0:55

And in this moment, my daughter is in another room Eating her breakfast. So you know, we're just always trying to make the best of all things, but we do have a guest with us today, and it's always a pleasure to have a guest. Each guest brings something new, something different, some new form of healing, and that's what this is all about. It's all about our healing and how we handle situations and how to move into a positive direction and how to just overcome things. And no, we're not alone. We are not alone. Just because our circumstances are different from someone in our circle doesn't mean we're alone. So let's acknowledge that and just know that we are moving forward in all things. But today, today, we have Ann Russo joining us. Hello.

Ann Russo: 1:49

Ann, hello, hello Candace, hi Janet, I'm so happy Hello.

Candace Fleming: 1:54

Ann, hello, it's so nice. We've had the pleasure of having a few minutes with you prior to the podcast, you prior to the podcast, and I really love your energy and I'm excited for what today brings and what healing it brings for someone else. So I want to go ahead. I want to let you guys know who Ann is, what she does and what she brings, so I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about her. So Ann Russo oh my God. She is a dedicated psychotherapist and social worker who's upbringing in a queer household during the transformation in the 80s and 90s deeply influenced her commitment to social justice and advocacy to marginalized communities. I love that, I really do. Holding an MA in theology from Loyola Marymount University and an MSW from California State University, long Beach, anne combines her extensive education with the wealth and training and public speaking to effectively address the unique mental needs of diverse populations. Thank you, anne.

Candace Fleming: 3:18

And she is the founder and clinical director of AMR Therapy since 2018, which means she has a hand in this and has been doing it and has seen people come and go ups and downs and has grown the organization to serve over 1,800 clients, that's 1,800 clients providing culturally affirming care to the queer community, people of color and those in diverse alternative relationships. Her work is marked by a dedication to inclusivity and sensitivity, which is one of the great things we talk about on our podcast and one of the things we hit on and one of the things that we try to bring to our audience, expanding her reach and now focuses on offering continuing education unit. Those are CEUs, those in social work and everything know about their CEUs and how you must get the trainings and she does offer that for trainings for mental health professionals and consulting for perspective private practice owners. These initiatives aim to enhance skills in engaging with the queer community, applying sexual positivity therapy approaches, positive sexual therapy approaches, and we've talked about sex addiction and things on the podcast before, so here's a follow-up and someone who can help with these things as well. So we are just really looking forward to that and her understanding and alternative relationship dynamics. I don't know if you all are familiar with poly or non-monogamous, ethical, non-monogamy relationships. These are things that people are now coming into contact with or now exploring because we're in the time of exploring with, are now exploring because we're in the time of exploring. So through her consulting services and guides practitioners in creating inclusive practices that uphold operational excellence and therapeutic best practices.

Candace Fleming: 5:39

I hope you guys heard that Therapeutic best practices and enduring advocacy and educational endeavors continue to drive significant change in the mental health field, supporting the well-being of undeserved populations. And I hope you guys heard that we are talking about supporting the well-being of undeserved populations in the mental health field. And what's the name of our podcast? Essential Mental Healing. So this is right up our alley. This is definitely something that needs to be talked about, something that needs to be heard, and we are super, super excited to have this conversation with you. And but before we delve into all of the excellence and knowledge and education and experience that you have, how are you.

Ann Russo: 6:36

I am so excited to speak to you both today. You know, Candace, when you said we spoke for a few minutes, you were downplaying that. We spoke for hours because we were just vibing so good together and I'm just so excited to bring that energy to the podcast.

Candace Fleming: 6:53

Yes, absolutely, it's so awesome to have you. You know, um, I think we talked a little bit before about my mother's upbringing and how we and we've talked about this on the podcast before how she was raised in a home with a gay uncle who had HIV, who died in the home, but the home was so homey and what I mean by that is loved and cared for. There was no opposition or because you're this, you're no longer a part of us. It's oh, you're the took a bite from the apple, from the tree of knowledge, opposed to the tree of life. The tree of life would have given us eternal life, but the tree of knowledge gave us death.

Candace Fleming: 8:01

And I struggled with that. As far as what does that truly mean? As far as now, we die Like she didn't die right then. So in my mind, I think when I'm reading this okay, she ate the apple, boom, she's dead. But it just meant the beginning of something new and that was knowledge for us in that time. And so when I talk to you and I hear your bio and I hear about you and how you've continued to perpetuate something new, to make it a norm, because now we're we're used to dying, I mean that's the thing we know death is coming.

Ann Russo: 8:40

Yes, yes.

Candace Fleming: 8:42

We don't. We don't expect eternal death, we don't expect to live forever. And so with that, in the new upbringing and new things and new open experiences and new knowledge, we have a new healing, we have a new way of life, we have a new way of expressing and entering things. So with that one again, how are you? And just take us a little bit on your journey, what the good, the bad, the ups, the downs, and we'll just have a discussion around that.

Ann Russo: 9:15

Okay, okay. So growing up I would say, as we talked with your mom too, is it was a really different time. The 80s and 90s people were. This is the rise of the I say, religious right, the very conservative sect of Christianity, and it was really quite a pushback to LGBTQ folks. So I live that time in fear, honestly in fear, because we weren't allowed to share about our family, we weren't allowed to say that. You know, dad is a gay man, so we lived with my mom, my dad, his partner and I live with my younger sister, so we lived in this little bubble of secret, of secret secrets. But it taught me a lot because I had the opportunity to meet a lot of gay men specifically, and as this was the time of the HIV and the AIDS crisis, so I saw a lot of those people with the HIV that would eventually turn into AIDS and people were passing away a lot. I can remember a time where I was asleep in my room and I heard my dad and his friend crying because one of their friends had just passed away from from AIDS. So that was a very troubling time and it gave me a heart for what that experience is like and how many people died alone. You know. So when I hear what you were saying you know a moment ago about your mom and Janet, you know what you're saying about. You know your uncle. It's what a gift for everybody, because so many unfortunately, unfortunately did not receive that. So I'd say that was a big piece that highlighted childhood.

Ann Russo: 11:14

And social justice was another part, because I firmly believed as I got into high school that there needed to be space for everybody and I was coming into my own sexuality at the time and that was a journey in and of itself because, even though I was raised in a gay household, I still knew what society was like. So I tried not to be gay. I tried so hard not to be. The thing that I knew made our family different. That made us have to be a secret, that made my dad afraid to go in public, sometimes worrying about being gay bashed. I ended up meeting some people that you know. This was mid-90s, we're in California. A lot of the friends that I made were bisexual and they were flirting around with their sexual orientation at the time and I was in complete shock that people were open about this and it took me, even though I knew about myself. It took me about six, seven months before I even told any of my friends that were already dating people of the same gender. You know, so it was, it was my.

Ann Russo: 12:26

It was a still another journey on top of that and I, once I came out, I felt this need to do something more. And in my high school, I started the first Gay Straight Alliance and we had to fight the school board on that. It was very difficult. They pushed very hard back, with the help of some threats, or I should say conversations that I had with the principal around inviting the media to talk about us not being able to have the club. We were able to have our club and we had some awesome teachers that helped us and we were the first high school to ever march in a gay pride parade back in the mid nineties. Wow, yeah, yeah, and so that was really awesome. So that was kind of like the start of the journey of social justice and, you know, looking at people's mental health and how we can help stigmatize folks, and then it just kind of blew up from there and here I am now.

Candace Fleming: 13:30

That's that is um awesome that you were able to kind of hone into what you needed. I have a question with when you say you when you came out. How old were you when you came out?

Ann Russo: 13:46

So I knew that I was attracted to women when I was in kindergarten.

Ann Russo: 13:52

Wow, I knew that I was, but I kind of just let it. You know, I'm in kindergarten, so it's not. There's not a whole lot of thinking about sexuality at that time. But I knew there was something different, right? I told my dad when I was in fifth grade and his response to me was you know, honey, you're very young still and that's totally okay if you are, but you know, like let's just take, you can just take some time, and you know like that could change for you. It might not change for you, but whatever it is, that's fine. So there was no pressure to be anything. And I know that sometimes people may assume that gay parents are making gay kids or they want their kids to be gay. But that was definitely not the case in my family whatsoever, and I don't I doubt it's the case in any family really. But you know he was very supportive of whoever I turned out to be.

Candace Fleming: 14:49

And then I came out when I was a freshman in high school. So about 14, 15?

Ann Russo: 14:53

14. Yeah, 14. I felt so old then already, Really, you know I already had known it for like eight years. Yeah, that's true.

Candace Fleming: 15:06

That's very true. Eight years of hiding is a long time. Yeah, I have another question. As far as so, you said your father was gay. Yes, how long did you know your father was?

Ann Russo: 15:18

gay knew from the time I was five. Well, from the time I was five, he, he came out to his family, my mom and everything. When he, when I, when I, was about four and my sister was two, and at five years old, we all moved together with his partner to another state and we all lived together.

Candace Fleming: 15:41

When you say we all, did that include your mother.

Ann Russo: 15:43

Yes, ma'am.

Janet Hale: 15:47

Wow, yeah, I heard that yes ma'am.

Candace Fleming: 15:49

Wow, I heard that when she said it earlier. Yeah, that's quite amazing. So your mother was very supportive. Were they married at any point or were they just in a relationship?

Ann Russo: 15:56

Yes, okay, they were married. They got married about five years before my dad came out.

Candace Fleming: 16:03

Okay, and do you know, have you ever had a conversation with your dad about when this started for him and what that looked like as far as having to hide that and then being with a woman having children and then deciding to come out? Did you ever get to have that conversation and what that looked like for him?

Ann Russo: 16:22

Oh yeah, with all of my family members. We're all pretty open about discussing our experiences, feelings, emotions. So he did not really recognize his sexuality because where he grew up, the time in which he grew up, it just wasn't a thing. People didn't really know what it was, so it didn't, it wasn't even on his radar. Okay, you know, he got married to my mom and as time went on, I think he started to realize that something was different and when he realized what was going on, he tried to push it down and push it away and he started to get very sick and he told my mom and my mom is actually the person who suggested that he go to a therapist, like to like, affirm who he was, whatever that meant. Yeah, and you know he, he did, you know, discover his sexuality. He, he was.

Ann Russo: 17:19

My mom told me this part, actually, that he came back to the house and said I'm so sorry, but I'm gay. Oh, what'm so sorry, but it's true, I'm gay, you know. So my mom, believe it or not, was very understanding and accepting of that. I mean, I know it was, it was. I can only imagine you know it was. I'm sure it was so painful.

Candace Fleming: 17:44

Yeah, but she wasn't.

Ann Russo: 17:46

She was accepting of someone needing to be exactly who they are.

Candace Fleming: 17:50

Yeah, that's awesome. So your father had the space to be who he was.

Ann Russo: 17:57

Yeah.

Candace Fleming: 17:58

So let me ask you this, for people who are listening and may think like, okay, I know, I feel like my parents would understand, but I'm still afraid. And you held on for eight years and I know part of that was just exploring who you were. So do you feel like by 14, 15, you were able to sit in who you were, or was it? I'm making a decision? What did that look like for you? Because your father told you, oh, you're young, you're exploring, so did it take time to go? Okay, I'm going to explore males, I'm going to explore females. I'm going to check this whole thing out and just see what works for me, because we are our own experience and I love the fact that you took control of your own experience in your own life and didn't live it for someone else.

Candace Fleming: 18:50

Rather that was religious teachings or not. You know it's like, hey, this is who I believe I'm to be, this is what makes me happy and I'm okay with walking in this purpose. I'm okay with my spiritual connection. Whatever that looks like, it's not between flesh and flesh, this is between me and my spiritual connection. So can you just kind of explain to me, or explain to us, what those eight years of waiting to come out looked like, felt like, and what that relief was like, or non-relief was like at 14, 15.

Ann Russo: 19:25

Okay. So, being you know from fifth grade through you know to ninth grade, I was really struggling. I can remember how absolutely difficult that was. I knew I was a tragedy. Whitman, I admit I had a little crush on my teacher Shout out if she's listening. Yeah, I mean, she was awesome. Which grade, which grade?

Candace Fleming: 19:55

Sixth grade. Okay, so she know who she is.

Ann Russo: 19:58

Yeah, she know who she is. Yeah, sixth grade. But I was so embarrassed of that, you know, and I tried to hide this away so hard. Like my friends, I'd be like, let's date, I want to date this boy, I want to do this. And I was definitely a kid who was very tomboyish, so I wasn't exactly one of those cute little girls fluttering around town. So like it was a very it was difficult. I tried to shove it down, shove it down, shove it down, shove it down, and it just made me more sick and it was through, I think, me trying to shove my own sexuality down and then having to hide my family's situation too. I finally did share about my family's situation with a teacher that I had in eighth grade who I still speak to. She was an absolute lifesaver to me, the first person I ever shared a feeling with. Wow, yeah, yeah, so. So when I finally did come out, I came out.

Ann Russo: 21:07

So my view, okay, of sexuality is very open. I'm very open. So I think some people are like, okay, I absolutely align with being attracted to cis men or cis women, or I align with that and that's great, wonderful, be yourself. I think there's some people that can float around a little bit more on that scale, and I think some people lean more one way or the other but can still float around. So I was. I'm very open, even to this day, like I would never. It's easier for me to say I am a queer woman, but if love finds its way, I'm not one to say I'm not going to have love. You know, like, hey, like it. That hasn't happened with anyone but a woman. But why should I narrow my ability to love? But I'm going to honor myself the whole time. I'm not going to try to be something else or be attracted to someone that I'm not attracted to.

Candace Fleming: 22:15

Right, Absolutely Wow.

Janet Hale: 22:21

I want to jump in. Go ahead, jump in, jump in. Thank you so much and I so appreciate you being here. I'm so appreciative to share this space with you today and as I listen to you and I think back on my childhood as we mentioned earlier, and living in a home with a gay uncle and growing up knowing that he was gay, you know what I mean Like this was a thing. It wasn't and it wasn't a family secret, which was interesting. It was everybody knew and like we wore. We wore like a badge of honor and so we were like. But we noticed that people thought we were different, like the cat and mouse in front of the TV.

Janet Hale: 23:10

Oh, she's going to tell my business, right, because we had mice. If they wanted the house, they'd have the TV. Oh, she's going to tell my business, because we had mice.

Candace Fleming: 23:16

It was the cat.

Janet Hale: 23:18

I'm about to get to that part. So we were watching TV, we had company over. She's throwing us all off track. That's okay. We were watching TV, we had company over. So my uncle, the gay uncle, went and got a cat so he could handle the mice. We're having company, it's dark, the cat and the mouse are playing in front of the TV. We're like what the hell? So we're sitting going. So my uncle's cursing the cat out what good are you? So I say all that to say that that's how I grew up. You know I grew up in. You know I tell you that story, but not once did we go. Oh my God, oh my God, we have company. No, we were like damn Kat, what are you doing?

Candace Fleming: 24:11

We're having this whole conversation with Kat.

Janet Hale: 24:14

Nobody's running and hiding or anything like that, and the company that was in the home was not reacting in a way that would make us feel ashamed about what was going on in the moment. And so you mentioned the word queer, and I know before we started we talked about understanding, better understanding, and I remember when that word was not acceptable and I hear it now that it's being used more often than before. So when I heard you say that, I thought about that. The other thing we talk about, the healing of the spirit. We didn't say it like this, but the spirit, the mind, the physical.

Janet Hale: 24:54

We know that I have a problem with my foot and I'm healing through all that, but I'm constantly on a mental health healing journey and I've been there since I was very young and didn't realize it, and so for me it boiled down to honesty, and so sometimes when I walked in the room, people didn't want to see me coming. What is she about to say? Because I was just, I had a thing about it. There was something in me that would say this needs to be told, whatever it is. That would say this needs to be told, whatever it is, if it was a story about molestation in the family. I'm having that conversation In a room, in the living room, full of company and people, with the person sitting there and everybody's looking at me. They're rolling their eyes. They're like, oh boy.

Janet Hale: 25:54

Oh I love this, but I would like to think, because of that experience, I saved somebody. Yes, yeah.

Janet Hale: 26:03

And so that is where my mind goes, you know when I think about that. The other thing I wanted to say, okay, when Ken was introducing you, was that you work with the underserved. Because I was listening to it, I wanted to say something real quick because it sounded like another word was coming out Marginalized people. And I'm finding, as I get older, that what we consider to be abnormal is more normal. Nothing is new under this sun, none of it.

Janet Hale: 26:39

If we go back in history and sound like you have from one of your degrees, you go back in history homosexualities or gay, whatever words they used back then, I'm not sure what the words were, but it was happening. So nothing is new under the sun. And so now we talk about and I'm going to use the word fluid because that's the word of the day Love is love, whatever that love is. And so for any of us anywhere to recognize what love is and let it come whatever form it comes in, to be open to it, because I've seen those who normal homes, not that happy. And so what is normal in my eyes and I'm the hippie of the group, I'm okay with it, I'm like, I live with it, I love it, I'm going to get it. I think I'm going to have Candace make me a badge for my next birthday or something, I don't know.

Candace Fleming: 27:49

It's coming in June. It's coming in June. What do you want? A badge of?

Janet Hale: 27:54

the hippie, the hippie thing. I like to do the hippie thing. When I was listening to you about that, growing up in the 80s and watching my uncle have to deal with the death and they had the ACT medicine, I think it was and he stopped going to support groups because people were dying and I remember saying Tom, how come you're not going to the? And one day he just said it, he said I can't go back, we're losing people. We're losing people. And so for me, I feel although for some folks they look at my household and say that was the most dysfunctional household on the block For me it was the biggest gift I could have ever gotten, because I was introduced to so many different things that would have been considered not normal. Therefore, my eyes, when I see a person, I see me, if that makes any sense at all yes, you know.

Janet Hale: 28:59

So Candace is about to put me on.

Candace Fleming: 29:00

I am, I am because I wanted to go back to and we've talked about this before generational curses, and how generational curses, at least in my exploration, in my knowledge, and what I believe to be true is about not teaching the past curses so that they don't even have to deal with that to try to break it. Breaking it is just not teaching it, and so I feel like and but also with that comes the storms to get to a place of calmness. So, for your household, you felt like you grew up and people looked at you weird and different and at that time that didn't look normal. However, we fast forward to today.

Candace Fleming: 29:48

It would have been more acceptable for you and your household, mom, it would be more acceptable today to have what you had, but part of that was people like your household had to make the way. You had to go through some things. You had to go through some chastisation, you had to go through some judgment. You had to make it through that to say this is our life, this is my life and this is the purpose I'm going on in order to. You've had a happier time living your truth than living what other people felt your truth should be.

Janet Hale: 30:27

Exactly.

Candace Fleming: 30:28

Go ahead, Anne.

Janet Hale: 30:30

That is so true, that's such a true statement, um, and I can always tell when I'm not living in my truth because I'm so uncomfortable you know, I know someone who actually stayed married.

Candace Fleming: 30:45

Um and this kind of goes back to your story she found out that her husband was gay. However, she tried to maintain her marriage for the child. They had a child together and so she wanted to kind of stick in there. However, it wasn't the but. For that particular situation, it wasn't necessarily homosexuality that got in the way, it was the person's demeanor. They weren't kind, they were being demeaning, and part of that sometimes come when you're living in a life of shame. You start to project things onto other people, so you're unhappy within, so you're like okay, well, everyone else is going to be unhappy too. I'm going to yell at you, I'm going to curse at you, I'm going to tell you bad things about yourself. However, this particular person did go as long as they could until their child graduated and they were able to, you know, kind of go around things in that way.

Ann Russo: 31:44

Yeah.

Candace Fleming: 31:45

So just living that truth.

Ann Russo: 31:48

Yeah, and you know, Candice, the thing that about it is it's going to look different for everybody, and I think that that's the key, especially, you know, Candice, the thing that about it is it's going to look different for everybody, and I think that that's the key, especially, you know, as a therapist, you know it's when people come in, I don't have like this prescription for them, Like okay, so this is what it's going to look like for you, Right? Like I want to know. For some folks it may be I realize that I'm gay, but I'm happy in this relationship. I want to stay in this relationship, but we're monogamous. What am I going to do with this? So it's like it's figuring out what makes sense for the person involved.

Ann Russo: 32:29

I am not one to say this is what you have to do, and I think that that's important because I work with a lot of religious folks too, and some of those religious folks do not want to act on their sexual desire. Now, while that may not be my personal perspective, my role is to support them and their identity, and if they're telling me what I want, then let's talk about how you can be your best self. What does being your authentic self look like. So I'm very much on the ilk of really supporting the individual or the family for what it means for them to be happy and authentic not what I perceive for them to be happy and authentic.

Candace Fleming: 33:13

I love that. Let's switch over, because you do coaching, so let's switch over and just kind of talk about what you do for those who come to you. Like you said, I love that you support people on their journey, no matter what that journey is. So if that looks like I'm in the closet and I'm trying to figure out how to come out to my family, okay, let's explore that. If that's, I see that I'm attracted to the same sex and I don't want to be to be able to share that, okay, let's explore. Let's make you your best version of yourself so that you have no shame within yourself, so that you can live your best possible life in your true, authentic self.

Ann Russo: 34:06

And so let's just talk.

Candace Fleming: 34:08

Oh, I'm so excited.

Ann Russo: 34:10

Yes, exactly Exactly. I think that's a nuance. It's so hard for people to like understand it is. But, like you know, when the practice and being like I'm working with queer people, I could see some folks who might maybe be religious or feel like this doesn't feel safe for me or my child's trans, and I don't understand that I may not seem like a safe person but I want everyone to know that I am a safe person because I hear you.

Candace Fleming: 34:36

I hear you, yes.

Ann Russo: 34:36

I hear you, yes, I hear you. I hear you, I understand I don't have I see you, yes, yes, deep empathy all the way around for everybody you are important yes.

Janet Hale: 34:46

One of the things I thought about when I was listening to you, ann, was the trauma-informed care. Your approach is a trauma-informed care approach, which is for those who don't know and I know Ann knows because she's still here is we work in partnership. Not that I'm here to fix you, I'm here to assist you.

Candace Fleming: 35:07

There we go.

Janet Hale: 35:07

Because you are the expert of your life right. There we go and so I am here to help you and guide you through it in the areas in which you feel that you need it, say that again, you are the expert of whose life? You're the expert of your own life.

Candace Fleming: 35:24

You know your life better than anyone else.

Janet Hale: 35:28

I am here. I'm your partner in helping you get through whatever the issue is For you in this moment.

Ann Russo: 35:36

Yes, 100%.

Candace Fleming: 35:39

Absolutely I. Now, ann, I have a question Growing up and now I know you said you knew Things were different. Were you interested in both sexes? Yeah, what did that look like? And that exploration.

Ann Russo: 35:59

And.

Candace Fleming: 36:00

I say that for parents who are trying to figure out how to deal with their children, who are trying to figure it out. So how can a parent help assist a child who is exploring, and what that looks like.

Ann Russo: 36:16

Okay so I'm going to stick specifically to sexual orientation on this piece, just because I don't have, I haven't had, a gender identity concern in my life. Okay, so I want to stick just to the sexual orientation piece. So who I'm attracted to? Right, I think it can ebb and flow and I think when you're younger, you know you're like, you know there's these jokes that people make, like you know, college is a time where people explore their sexual orientation. Or, like you know, this girl has a girlfriend but then she married a guy. Like there's, that is real talk. Okay, like, everybody that I knew was exploring more women than men because I think it was more acceptable in society at that point.

Janet Hale: 37:06

Yeah.

Ann Russo: 37:06

I don't know what it's like now for the younger generation. I think exploration is normal and I think it's healthy. I think that you just teach your children to be safe. You teach them to respect themselves, children to be safe. You teach them to respect themselves. You teach them about enthusiastic consent and you and you really teach them. You know that in respecting others. If we can teach children that, I think they'll make better choices. They're going to make some real whoppers because we do our brain not fully developed. They're going to make some real whoppers because we do our brain not fully developed. We're going to do some. We're going to make some bad choices, but we don't know that are going to, you know, destroy our lives. They can be learning experiences and when it comes to exploring sexuality, you know that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to mean you're having a sexual relationship with someone. It just means like you're exploring maybe what your feelings look like towards people and what that means for you.

Janet Hale: 38:11

So, ann, would it be safe to say for a child who is dealing with that, whether they're gay or not, to make the space as comfortable and as safe as possible for them to be able to express it and to know that it's okay. Yes, whatever that is that you're feeling, it is okay here.

Ann Russo: 38:39

And they will come into themselves.

Candace Fleming: 38:41

They will but they're young.

Ann Russo: 38:43

Young people are exploring, you know they don't know what career they want. They don't know what kind of I mean, you know. I mean that's just real, like you're in that space of just absorbing and learning the. The thing that will hurt them is if you tell them who they are, how they are and who they can't be. That's where you're going to cause some trauma and that's where that that will carry with them through the through their life.

Candace Fleming: 39:09

Unfortunately, you know, I, um, I do know a child who has is kind of identifying with what their sexuality is. Um however they're, however, they are exploring. They're young, so they're exploring like is it boys, is it girls, is it both? And so just kind of guiding the parent through how to handle that situation and just being a support system or even what qualities to look for in a human being it doesn't matter what their gender is, whether it's male, female, trans.

Candace Fleming: 39:54

How does this person treat you? What are their morals and values? Just the same things you do with homosexual relationships. It's the same thing. What qualities in a person do you want? What are your non-negotiables?

Candace Fleming: 40:12

Especially as a child, we have to focus on things that are relatable. So does this person like math and reading? Do they pay attention to the teacher? Are they respectful? Are they kind? Do they show integrity? You know we have to bring it to an age level reference of things as an adult, of course. Are they responsible? Do they have discipline? Are they kind?

Candace Fleming: 40:38

Some of the same things are through lines. Do they show love? Do they speak to you with respect? Are they not disrespecting you? Just kind of certain through lines that, no matter where you are in your life and your journey, there are certain things that you just kind of have to pay attention to with humans and your situation and your life. So, and as adults, as parents who are guiding people going through their discovery of life, and you know what, honestly, even in a homosexual relationship, you're still figuring it out. It's just figuring out with that, that sex, which way you want to go like. Do I want someone who's classical and loves jazz? Do I want someone who loves hip hop? Do I want someone who loves their mother? Do I want someone who has children or don't have children? You know, it's still the same basis of the genuine humanity of humanity.

Candace Fleming: 41:40

When you break it down to a simplistic level and some of that goes back to the book of the Power of Now, right now, what is it, what does it look like right now? What is it right now that's going to make you happy? Let's focus on this. What is the solution to what is driving you crazy? What are your trigger points? What is it that got you there? Now, let's find the solution, because we know how to be there. We know what that looks like.

Candace Fleming: 42:06

We know what that feels like, and we don't like it. So now how do we approach it in a different way? And maybe that means looking at someone who's been through a situation and having a conversation with them. What did that look like for you? And that doesn't mean follow the exact same blueprint that they did. It's oh well. I want understanding. I want quote unquote knowledge of the situation.

Candace Fleming: 42:33

The more knowledge I have, the better I can deal with situations the better I can deal with things, and I think that that's something that the three of us have really kind of figured out. And the more we live in it and I've talked about this before when you live in your true self, the more people who are like you will gravitate to you. You'll have a happier and I talk about this all the time. Cardi B I could not stand her voice in the beginning. I thought she was ratchet, I thought she was ghetto. I was like who let her on this show? Like love and hip hop, what are y'all doing now? Like this is ratchet and ridiculous. However, in my ratchet time of watching my love and hip hop because I enjoy it and I will continue to enjoy it when I do and when I will and that's okay Guilty pleasure. However, today, on April 20th happy 420 everyone, which is when we're recording this 2024, we're able to do things differently at the end of the day and look at things differently.

Candace Fleming: 43:38

Look at them wholly and holistically, and when I say the word holistically, it makes me think of how the Chinese do their preventative opposed to fixing the problem universe, then we can I believe we can build a healthier universe nation, all of the things, whether it's North America, south America, asia, europe, australia, seven of them, all the continents.

Janet Hale: 44:18

Yeah, she said it's seven of them, it's seven of them.

Candace Fleming: 44:22

It's seven of them. I, the continents, yeah, yeah, yeah, the seven of them, the seven of them. I do know that. Yes, but you know, at the end of the day, that's really what this is about. It's all about these healthy relationships.

Janet Hale: 44:35

Yes, I think the healthy relationship starts with self, and it came up a few times in our conversations, stuffing who we are, who I am, who you are. And there's a saying you're as sick as your secrets. And that is such a true statement. Because that will keep you sick. Yes, it will, because either you're going to drink it away, eat it away, oh, Solange has a song.

Candace Fleming: 45:10

Oh my God, are you quoting Solange's song? No, oh my goodness. My accident, maybe. No, I'm talking to both of you.

Janet Hale: 45:19

Okay, and so you will find ways to numb that whatever that is, and to learn that you don't have to. It's okay to live in your truth. Yeah, because if you don't, we will get sick.

Ann Russo: 45:35

Yes.

Janet Hale: 45:36

It's going to happen and I don't know how it shows up. It shows up different for different people. But, to live in our truth. Yes, absolutely.

Candace Fleming: 45:46

What was your greatest healing moment? What does it look like? Do you remember the revelation? Do you remember the moment and I mean like that moment, not that you were healed or that you had conquered at the moment where you were like I got it?

Ann Russo: 46:02

I know I'm going to live my life.

Candace Fleming: 46:03

What did that?

Ann Russo: 46:03

look like Okay. So let me I'm going to say yeah, minus the S, because I think some of that I'm still figuring out, Because we're living.

Candace Fleming: 46:13

Yes.

Ann Russo: 46:14

Yes, but the moment where I felt clarity, so I didn't touch on this too much, so I'll make a quick. There was a time when I was really struggling with the religiosity piece and the sexuality piece, very deeply struggling with understanding that, and that was in my late teens to mid twenties, and I spent a lot of time in a church that did not think it was okay to be gay. Now I did not ever really feel like it wasn't okay, but I wanted to understand why these people were holding this perspective. So I did a lot of soul searching and I was looking for this answer. I can't even tell you what this was like. I did everything to try to find this answer.

Ann Russo: 47:03

I got my bachelor's in religious studies, my master's in theology, right. Like I went in this um, went on missions trips, talked about God, constantly read, studied, met people, anything you could think of. I was doing it, I was looking for God. And one day I don't even know man, God just kind of took over, I think, because I was like, wait now, God made me. Yeah, God made me, and I'm questioning a lot of these things that do not make any kind of sense to me Now, if I'm made in the image of God and this doesn't make sense. Then maybe there's something to the fact that this actually doesn't make sense and I don't know how to describe it.

Ann Russo: 47:51

But all of a sudden I was at complete peace with my spiritual relationship, with who I am and how I'll continue to grow, and no, and nobody could say anything to me that would make me question whether or not I was, you know, in the image of God, whatever you believe, like there was nobody that could make me question that love or that relationship, that there was something like intrinsically wrong with me, and that probably was in my early, my mid twenties maybe, but it's been solid Like I have never and I've heard and seen everything under the sun I could talk to someone who's complete in disagreement with me. I still have a lot of love in my heart. I'm good because I found that within myself and that was a real revelation, a real time of peace.

Janet Hale: 48:49

Yes, so that has been. I got that real early on as a little girl, but I couldn't speak on it because it's children Don't talk about that. And so you heard me refer to myself as a hippie. Yes, because I don't use the word God a lot. I would say universe.

Ann Russo: 49:16

Yeah, yeah.

Janet Hale: 49:18

However, I'm open to however people get down with it. I'm going to use the word God today, and that is to say this we are all a part of God, yeah, so what is the other? Yeah, yep. So what is there to question? Yep, what is there to question, yep? And so once we in my opinion and it's been my opinion before everybody started having all these conversations about things, I was always like well, god is a loving God. How come God don't love him or God don't love her? That never made sense to me, ever. And my mother used to get so upset with me, janet, I said no, mom, I just don't, they don't, I don't think I agree with that and I didn't. And guess what? I still don't. I agree with that and I didn't. And guess what? I still don't? Yep, Right, yep. It's about love. Yes, period, yes, that's it, and that's where I go with it. The hippie in me, she's so proud and happy.

Candace Fleming: 50:37

She don't know what to do with herself. Well, you know, ann, this has really been a pleasure. We are coming up on our time, um, having this has been one of the most fluid just listening conversations, um, and learning experiences of just having a natural human conversation. I do think that your experience and your words will definitely touch and heal someone especially struggling today. You have, you both have great experience.

Candace Fleming: 51:17

I too, my ex-husband, has a gay sister nephew. I too have a gay cousin and raising my child, who is eight years old and this time and age is different, because there is the whole thing of do you have conversations in school about what your sexuality is? Are you allowed to say, hey, I may not be attracted to the opposite sex, it may be the same sex? How do you address friends at this age? Because, I mean, in a homosexual community, it's easy to be eight and say I like that boy, a girl, or, as a boy, and say I like that girl and it's totally normal. We just talk about, oh well, you know, no kissing, no touching. But what happens in this generation when we have kids who see it and are, well, maybe I do like the same sex? So now my friend has become attractive, as if the opposite sex.

Candace Fleming: 52:27

There's a lot to deal with because I know, growing up for me, my mother didn't allow me to stay the night at houses where there were brothers, where there were boys, because of that whole whole what could happen. But now we have the well, if it's a boy or a girl, it's kind of so, you know, just kind of handling the age where sexuality is more acceptable. But how do we deal with it when we're trying to prevent certain things that are still humanity? You know, we're still dealing with body boundaries, whether it's same sex or opposite sex. We're still dealing with appropriate ways to handle our bodies, whether it's same sex or opposite sex. At the end of the day, we're all dealing with the same human problems. So how do we deal with that in this day and age? And I think we're all still on a discovery, on an exploration on how we get there.

Candace Fleming: 53:30

And there are people who are really struggling to the point where they don't know if they want to live. And of course, I always give out the suicide number. You can call or text 988 for free and confidential information throughout the United States, 24 hours, seven days a week. If you are struggling. You can reach out to therapists. Therapists are so much more readily available and I always want to say, if you do decide to search for a therapist, find one that is right for you. If you feel, oh, this therapist doesn't make me feel good, it's okay to say this isn't a good fit and I'm going to look for another therapist.

Candace Fleming: 54:12

Because everyone isn't for everyone. Everyone's belief systems, everyone's education is different. So you are going to have to find someone who is relatable to you and can help you in your situations. And let's say, we push the agenda of therapy, therapy, therapy. But reality is you need a safe place, a safe person to talk to, judgment free, where you can be yourself and explore your purpose in life and what God's will is for you, the universe's will is for you. So I do want to make sure that I do my due diligence and give my audience that kind of statement as we explore life. Is there anything that you two want to make sure we give to the audience? Release to them, touch to them and just help them on their journey of healing.

Janet Hale: 55:13

I wanted to say something. You mentioned problems. When I heard that word, I thought some of the things that we're talking about and our children are dealing with, and even us as adults are dealing with, are not so much a problem. We're not all problems. We're looking for different ways to maneuver through things and looking for solutions to a situation opposed to a problem, all the time, absolutely, and that was something that I wanted to say, and I also wanted to say that this program or this podcast has been great, because the way of healing looks different to different people.

Candace Fleming: 56:01

Yeah.

Janet Hale: 56:02

And we touch upon different ways of doing it. It's not just a cookie cutter way of doing it. You know we're like. You can try this. You know we, candace and I, have talked about death and we're laughing and talking and I guess people are saying what is? And we're like no, we're living off the memory. That was funny. You remember when so-and-so did so-and-so.

Janet Hale: 56:27

Yeah, okay, but that doesn't mean that we have not grieved. It doesn't mean that we're not still grieving, but we have learned to hold on to certain things that are good within the grieving. Yes, and so this program, in my opinion, is just, it's a great source of information and resource. Yes, you know? Yeah, that's all I had to say.

Candace Fleming: 57:01

It's on you, ann, what you got.

Ann Russo: 57:03

I just wanted to piggyback off what you were saying about therapy is just a reminder to folks out there that I do have a therapy practice with 15 therapists that all specialize in this work, and we do operate on a sliding scale. Nice, yeah. So we we operate in various states in the country. All they need to do is go to they. Actually, you can just email me at Ann A-N-N at A-M-R therapycom. Just put essential in there. I'll know who you are and the and the headline and I will make sure to get you hooked up with a consult to work with one of our therapists. And if you just need some support, we have support services too, and I can also do consulting, coaching around these areas working with parents who are struggling, kids that are struggling, anybody that wants to talk about these issues like I'm 100% here to support. So just email me and put essential there in the headline and I'll know where you came from and we'll do our thing.

Candace Fleming: 58:15

What is the fee range?

Ann Russo: 58:25

fee range. So the fee range is between 60 and 150. Most people are on the, on the lower end, and that's absolutely fine, and for support services it's a little bit cheaper and for some folks we will go even even lower. We got to stay in business, obviously.

Candace Fleming: 58:36

Right, right right.

Ann Russo: 58:37

We don't want to keep our good therapist, but we do our best to make it manageable and we also hold groups and things like that.

Candace Fleming: 58:45

Do you have, do you take insurance, or are you cash only?

Ann Russo: 58:49

We are cash pay only, but if you are in California or Nevada we can do a PPO super billing.

Candace Fleming: 58:55

Oh, which is a reimbursement from your insurance for out of network services? Yes, which is a reimbursement from your insurance?

Ann Russo: 59:01

for out of network services. Yes, and I'm going to be starting up a group about the intersection of Christianity and queerness, and anyone is welcome to join that group. It's going to be a small, small group but if it gets traction I'll run it several times. But if you're interested in doing that again, just reach out to me. I'm happy and here to help. I just want to spread love and authenticity and have people you know feel like they're doing their thing and living their best life.

Candace Fleming: 59:29

And is this in person or online? It is via Zoom.

Janet Hale: 59:33

Perfect.

Candace Fleming: 59:34

So anywhere you are in the world, you are welcome to this group and give us that where to log sign in at again.

Ann Russo: 59:43

So you can just email me directly or you can go to the website, which is amrtherapycom or annrussonet.

Candace Fleming: 59:56

All right, and spell that. Spell that for us, ann Russo, all right.

Ann Russo: 1:00:00

And spell that. Spell that for us, ann Russo. A-n-n-r-u-s-s-o. If you just plug that in there with L-C-S-W, it'll pop up.

Candace Fleming: 1:00:12

You'll see the business and other stuff. But hopefully, and last thing, what topics or what kind of situations can people come to you with?

Ann Russo: 1:00:22

or in what kind of situations can people come to you with? Anything that's involved in queerness? So coming out, family members coming out, transitioning partner, transitioning relationship issues, non-monogamy, opening up a relationship, kink, bds, this yeah, I'm here for all the stuff that we don't learn in grad school.

Candace Fleming: 1:00:50

Perfect with the experience. Guys, this isn't just. Oh, I woke up one day and decided this is the population.

Candace Fleming: 1:00:57

No, no physical, mental, spiritual, emotional experience which is actually better than any school can actually give you. So, just so you know. But yes, so of course, you guys, if there's anything, if you want to speak to Ann about whatever you're going through, actually I may have to send someone your way, actually, okay, but yeah, so, thank you all so much. Of course, you can find me at essentialmotivationcom, candice Fleming. At essentialmotivationcom. You can email me If you're looking to be a guest on the show. Just put EMH in the subject line podcast guest, and we'll definitely look forward to getting you. We are. We will be coming up on our season in in June, so we got a little bit of time, but we thank you all so very much.

Candace Fleming: 1:01:50

I am just really electrified by our conversation today. It was really really great. I really appreciate you and I love the conversation. I love you. We must remain in contact. Uh, yeah, I'm looking for. We're gonna have you again, for sure on one of our next seasons. I'm loving it all. Right, guys, thank you to our guests who listen. We definitely we can't do it without you. We're so happy that you guys are listening and I hope you enjoyed today's show, like subscribe and all of the wonderful things, so always remember to love hard, forgive often and laugh frequent. Thanks, guys, bye.